Featherstone Kloof, Grahamstown, SA

I had a lovely trip to this hiking area with my uncle and aunt in 2022. Grahamstown, or Makhanda is quite hard to get to from Gaborone. There are no direct flights, the nearest you can get to Grahamstown is either Port Elizabeth or East London. So I decided to bus it. What a crazy mistake! The buses were all on time and actually pretty comfortable, but my coccyx hated me by the end of the trip.

However coming from a chilly dry Gaborone to a misty cool Grahamstown in June was magic. The Grahamstown Arts Festival was on, and the mood was buoyant, everyone looking to catch a few shows, drink some microbrewed beer, buy some local crafts and have a holiday.

I stayed with my cousin at Blue Skies Backpackers, just near a small airfield on the outskirts of Grahamstown, The collection of succulents is outstanding, and displayed in the most arty way, coming out of mossy gumboots, and toilet pots and driftwood, beautiful rusted tools and sculptures jostling for space with the plants. (Pics from the November 2020 issue available for download in Archives).

Walking around the area are lots of beautiful indigenous plants, many of them fynbos species, like Ericas, Helichrysums and Proteas.

Surrounding Grahamstown is a beautiful mountainous area with some great trails to walk, it was a really blustery day when my uncle and aunt took me for a drive up to see the views over Featherstone Kloof, but it was still easy to see some really special plants, and gorgeous views. I’ve taken out the original audio of the video I took, as it was just too windy!

I ended the trip with a stay in Port Alfred at Rugged Rocks. One of my favourite places in South Africa.

Tofo, Mozambique 2024

My second visit to this idyllic spot in Mozambique – with almost the same latitude as Gaborone. I flew Air Botswana to Johannesburg which only takes 40 minutes or so, and then another direct flight on LAM to Inhambane, another hour. So I was able to leave Gaborone in the morning and arrive in Tofo by lunch time. Desert to the sea.. it’s always a slight shock to the system seeing the endless blue. The plane made a huge circle, flying over Maxixe, the estuary, then Barra and Tofo with all the mangroves and palm trees creating an unreal backdrop for the landing strip. I love Inhambane airport, it’s tiny and has a lovely cafe right on the strip where those waving you goodbye or hello can watch just metres away as you get on or off the plane. I used a brilliant taxi service called Amigos, and Ernesto was waiting for me as soon as I’d cleared customs and immigration. Late January is hot, humid with plenty of spontaneous rain showers.

From the plane I’d seen lots of tiny shrubs with bright orange-red fruit on them, which I quickly learnt were locally called Mabobo, Diospyros rotundifolia. This wasn’t exactly going to be a holiday, more of a scouting trip, but with Tofo being Tofo, even work becomes a holiday. The food is yum, fresh fish, crab cakes, sushi, sizzling hot plates of scallops in the market, and cheap hideaways of rice and curry for only P25 (120 meticals/2usd). Accommodation has an equally dizzying array of choices, from right on the beach, to sunset views over the estuary, to eclectic yoga retreats, and garden airbnbs. There is live music at Tofo Tofo and Dathonga on certain nights, pool parties at Mozambeat, and even more activities for during the day – diving, surfing, fishing and snorkelling. With another activity that I always add in to anything I do – of plant spotting.

The dunes around Tofo beach range between 1 and 5m or so of elevation, around Tofinho up to 10m or higher, and further towards Barra or Praia da Rocha higher still.

The main Tofo stretch is lined with Casuarina trees ( Casuarina equisetifolia). Back from the beach a bit, and a common garden tree are Indian Almond trees (Terminalia catappa). Their huge leaves are very decorative. All of these are introduced species, including Cashew (Anacardium occidentale) and Coconut palms (Cocos nucifera), with the latter three cultivated for the edible nuts and fruits. Indian Almond leaves are also reportedly used to treat scabies, leprosy wounds and other skin diseases.

It is only as you go further away from the developed sections of the beach that you see more of the indigenous dune vegetation.

I saw some almost fynbos like species in one place with aromatic grey shrubs possibly Helichrysum.

Near or on the beach I found Canavalia maritima a vine that has pretty pink pea-like flowers; Cyperus crassipes, a robust tussocky sedge; Sporobolus virginicus – grass clumps on Tofinho beach and Ipomoea pes-caprae.

There are so many flowering plants on the dunes: Barleria prionitis subsp. delagoensis a popular garden plant in Botswana; Gloriosa superba, Flame lily, the national flower of Zimbabwe and valuable medicinal plant – the medicinal properties of the plant are due to the presence of alkaloids, chiefly colchicine, in seeds and rhizomes, and it is used to cure arthritis, gout, rheumatism, inflammation, ulcers, bleeding piles, skin diseases, leprosy, impotency and snakebites; Asystasia gangetica subsp. micrantha and Sesamum senecioides ( used to be Dicerocaryum) – a traditional soap; Carpobrotus dimidiatus (edible fruit); and lilies: Crinum spp. (lily with white flowers in summer) and Dipcadi brevifolium.

Some nitrogen-fixing plants also grow on the low-nutrient dune sands such as Chamaecrista paralias – a small woody shrub with and pretty yellow flowers, Tephrosia purpurea subsp. canescens, different Indigoferas: I. podophylla; I. nummulariifolia; I. paniculata and I. spicata.

There are many vines that are threaded through the coastal vegetation, edible indigenous cucumber vines like Coccinia adoensis; the prickly nicker bean, Guilandina bonduc, the seeds of which possess anti-inflammatory as well as analgesic activity; parasitic Cassythia vines, aromatic jasmine – Jasminum fluminense, Cissus quadrangularis and Acacia pentagona.

All sorts of shrubs such as Coptosperma littorale, Diospyros rotundifolia, Eugenia capensis subsp. capensis, Grewia caffra that has an edible berry, valued also for its medicinal uses; Mimusops caffra (sour plum) and Salacia kraussii also with edible fruits; Ozoroa obovata, Euclea undulata, Carissa bispinosa and Croton inhambanensis.

Palm species include: Cocos nucifera, Hyphaene coriacea and Phoenix reclinata

Trees include Sclerocarya birrea (Marula) and I even saw a baobab (Adansonia digitata) which I did not expect, plus Trichilia emetica (Natal mahogany). The seeds yield an oil locally called Mafura oil. The seeds are soaked in water and the milky soup is eaten with spinach. Seed arils are also soaked and cooked together with sweet potatoes or squash.

One of the common local dishes that you can eat in Tofo is Matapa –  basically stewed cassava leaves with peanuts, coconut and a few other ingredients. You can see cassava (Manihot esculenta) growing all around Tofo and Inhambane. Raw cassava can be toxic due to naturally occurring forms of cyanide. Soaking and cooking cassava makes these compounds harmless. It’s also a good source of Vitamin C and the leaves can contain up to  25% protein.

There are many succulent species that make up sand dune vegetation too: such as Carpobrotus dimidiatus, Scaevola plumieri, Scaevola thunbergii, Euphorbia tirucalli, Cissus quadrangularis, and Sansevieria (Dracaena) species such as S. conspicua, S. concinna and S. hyacinthoides (syn. Dracaena hyacinthoides).

It was such a stunning trip and there is so much to appreciate in this tiny corner of the world, I only hope that beach developments conserve the indigenous vegetation, and appreciate the valuable benefits these plants give in terms of food, medicine, dune preservation, security and beauty.

I hope to see you again soon Tofo!

Monthly Issues

Like previous blogs, these monthly issues are going to cover what’s growing in my garden in that particular month. The aim is to give fellow gardeners inspiration, direction or a bit of an escape into my style of gardening. It is a jungly, untidy and otherworldly garden teeming with an underbody of delicious fruit and veg, dangerous creatures and always the element of surprise. Issues are available via Paypal on the home page of this website, and also on Amazon/Kindle (see link below). Suggestions and feedback is always appreciated.

https://a.co/d/2dbgK2C (January24)

February 2024 now out…

february-24_001

February 2024

Monthly magazine on all garden areas of my personal garden in Botswana

$1.00

Thailand

This is a bit of a rambling memoir to myself about this first amazing visit to Thailand, and not exclusively about the plants I saw there. Although I only saw a small southern corner of it, I was immediately enamoured. Jungle-clad mountains, and flowers virtually everywhere. Almost every residence I saw had an array of pots filled with tropical plants and bright flowers growing on their doorstep, with hanging orchid baskets and lotus pots. If you only want to hear about the plants, skip to the end where I visit the Phuket Botanical Garden.

I arrived after a long flight into Phuket on Qatar airways, and jetlag plus the incredibly windy roads heading south from the airport had me feeling a little green. But the scenery was lovely, we passed rubber plantations, oil and date palm plantations, a few inland dams surrounded by cashew nut trees, and the national tree Cassia fistula (golden shower tree) was dotted along the road, full of bright yellow flowers. I was staying on the western side of Phuket at Karon beach, and a few glimpses of the sea, plus the smell of lunch soon had me forgetting the jetlag.

My plan for the first day, was to visit a few of the islands and so I joined a tour going to James Bond Island, and a couple of other islands too. Our first stop was Panak island which has a bat cave. We had to wade through this cave in knee high water in the dark for about 50m and then it opens up to a mangrove surrounded by mountains. The mountains are covered in varied vegetation with ferns, Euphorbia species, and what I think were some cycads too.

Next island was Hong island for some canoeing – there were lots of people, almost like playing bumper-canoe,

Then came Khao Phing Kan in Ao Phang Nga National Park, popularly called James Bond Island, named after the movie. Here there were lots of ferns (Drynaria quercifolia I think), pandanus (leaves are an ingredient in thai food), and of course the much-admired 250 million-year-old limestone formation.

Next came lunch at the Ko Panyi and then some swimming at Naka island.

Day 2: Was a beach, market and restaurant day, and by the end I was truly stuffed full of Thai food. My favourite restaurants were Sabaijai cafe where I ate twice, red crab curry and then a green veg curry – so incredibly yum. Then Kiri restaurant I ate at twice too, the chicken with cashew nut and pork belly dishes were divine. If only I could eat them every day. But the best and cheapest restaurant in Phuket was Mee Ton Poe. All of their dishes were scrumptious and really cheap compared to the more tourist oriented restaurants.

Day 3: Similan Islands in the Andaman sea – This was a really special trip, although most of what I saw was under the sea. The diversity and quantity of fish was really lovely to see: Sealface pufferfish, Srgt major, Powderblue surgeonfish, Moorish idols, Cleaner wrasse, Rainbow parrotfish, Coral grouper, Oriental sweetlips, Cowries, Crown of thorns, Batfish, Titan triggerfish, Barracuda, Staghorn, Table and Whip coral, two Turtles, Snapper, Angelfish, Goldies, Blenny, Trevally, and so many more. On land I saw what looked like a miniature komodo dragon – a monitor lizard I think, but he looked like something out of Jurassic Park, so I decided not to be curious. The trip was slightly shocking in one aspect, the numbers of people. I had assumed being a rather remote island that there would only be a few people there, especially as it is uninhabited and they limit the numbers of people that can visit per day. Wow was I wrong! There were over twenty or thirty boats, and the stopover for lunch, felt like I was back in a very very large school, where you have to queue for your lunch, the toilets etc.

I saw my first Fishtail Palm in its native habitat – Caryota mitis, Ficus and Pandanus too.

Day 4: Koh Phi Phi island and Koh lanta – this was a really enjoyable 2hr speedboat trip on Bhundaya from Phuket to Koh Lanta via Phi Phi (made even more famous by the movie, the Beach). Koh/Ko is the word for island in Thai.

Koh Lanta was just what I was looking for, and I was lucky enough to find it. It was quiet, peaceful, laid back, so different from the Phuket crowds. I’d actually only decided to stay here so that I could more easily dive the Hin Muang and Hin Daeng sites that are about another 2 hr speedboat drive south. I’d read about these dive sites online, and they were really incredible. Hin Muang was called Purple rock for all the soft purple corals that cover the underwater rock, and has several underwater pinnacles. The drop-offs around Hin Muang are very rich in marine life and covered in soft corals, gorgonian sea fans and black corals. Hin Daeng is known as red rock, and covered with red soft corals, which makes the rock appear red. Only three small pinnacles are visible from the surface, but once underwater, Hin Daeng stretches to 45 metres down before reaching the sandy bottom. Both were incredible dives with lots of macro life including nudibranchs, and then huge morays one that swam out right in front of me. There were so many schools of fish swimming around you, that to actually see further than a metre was quite hard, although the visibility was excellent. Featherstars and christmas worms, plus lionfish and all the other amazing tropical fish were all really lovely to see, but it was the rock walls covered in life that were really extraordinary, every centimetre was just different and hard to take everything in. The currents were also quite strong, but that meant little effort was needed to move along, it only became a struggle if you wanted to wait a while to get a closer look. Overall probably the best dive experience, there was only nine of us, and we were divided into groups of three along with a dive master/instructor from Lanta diver. So not only was it professionally organized, but the sites were so beautiful too.

It was my last day in Koh Lanta, so after I arrived back from the dive, I rented a scooter and headed for Old Lanta town and the mangroves on the eastern side. This was a really wonderful idea, and although my first few tries at riding the scooter were a bit hair-raising I finally found my balance and set off for Thung Yee Pheng Mangrove Forest. Here you can rent a kayak for about P100 for a few hours. I love mangrove forests, you get to see some extraordinary wildlife usually. There were plenty of crabs, monkeys and birds.

Last day in Phuket was spent at the amazing botanical garden, and a bit of old Phuket too. There were only a few orchid species flowering, but the set up is really lovely, and they have all the unusual fruit trees of Thailand too, including the white noni fruit – Morinda citrifolia; Garcinia mangostana, Mangosteen – different to our indigenous mangosteen (G. livingstonei) – a bit larger too; Anacardium occidentale, (exotic) Cashew nut; foxtail palm; Schleichera oleosa, kusum tree, Ceylon oak, lac tree, gum lac tree; Bouea macrophylla, marian plum – this is so delicious like a miniature very sweet mango; Artocarpus lacucha, also known as monkey jack or monkey fruit; Artocarpus heterophyllus, the well known jackfruit; Elaeis guineensis, african oil palm (native to equatorial africa); Xantolis siamensis bears little known fruits; Careya sphaerica (the shoots are eaten raw with chili sauce, nam phrik, the flowers are also served raw with nam phrik or with vermicelli and fish curry, the fruit is eaten fresh); Alangium salviifolium, a medicinal plant used traditionally in India; Elaeocarpus hygrophilus a small shrub that is also used in thai food; Terminalia chebula, commonly known as black or chebulic myrobalan (the nut-like fruits are picked when still green and then pickled, boiled with a little added sugar and used in preserves; Suregada multiflora, false lime tree another little known species that is used in traditional medicine; Syzygium polyanthum known as Indonesian bay leaf – the leaves of the plant are traditionally used as a food flavouring and Syzgium aqueum known as Rose apple.

I’ve gone a bit overboard on the pictures below:

It’s also bromeliad heaven walking around the garden, and the variety of palm trees is amazing, with some unusual aroids too.

Dypsis lastelliana – red neck palm; Pandanus amaryllifolius – fragrant pandan leaves used in cooking; exotic palms like Copernicia prunifera or the carnaúba palm is a species of palm tree native to northeastern Brazil. Known by many as ‘tree of life’ because of its many uses; Salacca zalacca a thorny palm tree which yields a salak fruit and is often found in local markets; Ravenala madagascariensis, the traveller’s palm (exotic from Madagascar) which is so beautiful; Pritchardia pacifica, the Fiji fan palm, is native to Tonga.

I hope you enjoyed the trip like I did, ending it with a relaxing day at Cape Panwa and a trip to old Phuket.

Mont Rochelle Reserve, Franschhoek, Cape Town

My dad and I just went on a brief trip to Cape Town, and I organized an itinerary for us that went from Franschhoek, then on to visit my aunt in Uitzicht, and finally to end up in Bloubergstrand. Some Fynbos, wine, family, food, fish and chips, beach and sea to sum it up. It was absolutely delightful. I love Cape Town, and having family there always makes it a special experience.

We arrived a bit later than expected into Cape Town airport (delayed flight of course!), however who feels like complaining when the plane takes you over those gorgeous mountains, then over sparkling sea with just the shadow of a shark lurking somewhere underneath, and on to drop you into the most beautiful city. Not me. We’d arranged a shuttle through Wolf shuttles, and were picked up straight away and driven out to Franschhoek, passing vineyards and horse farms in Stellenbosch. The sky was blue, temperature about 24 degrees, sublime. I think arriving safely always feels a bit like you’ve glugged a few glasses of champagne, with bubbles of happiness and relief. It took about an hour from the airport to Franschhoek, and so we arrived at our guesthouse, Centre-ville just around 7.30pm. The host helpfully called ahead to Le Bon Vivant restaurant, and our stay was off to a fabulous and delicious start.

The next day, rain was forecast, and wind, and the forecast was right. Black skies blew across and then cleared into a tiny ray of sunshine, before rain, a rainbow, and then repeat. It wasn’t too heavy though, so our plan to visit Mont Rochelle reserve was still doable. After breakfast, and loaded up with plastic bags for cameras, an umbrella and a couple of ponchos, we got a tuk tuk taxi up to Mont Rochelle reserve, about a ten minute drive from our guesthouse. It’s just about 200m off the tar road, with a small parking area, portable toilets, and a small office where you can buy tickets (70 rands per adult) with cash or pay using the zapper app. The reserve forms part of the Boland Biosphere Reserve, a UNESCO declared World Heritage Site, and is 1 759 hectares. It is also where you can see the unique flora ecoregion that is fynbos –  a small belt of natural shrubland or heathland vegetation located in the Western Cape and Eastern Cape provinces of South Africa which is known for its exceptional degree of biodiversity and endemism.

There are a few trails marked on the board by the office, and we started off on the Perdekop trail. The wind was howling over the mountains and it drizzled off and on, making it a little difficult to take any pictures.

The circular Perdekop Trail rises 850m from its starting point to peak halfway at Perdekop, 1 575m, it is the highest point in the Mont Rochelle Nature Reserve. In winter, it sometimes snows in the reserve, and you can see it best on the Perdekop trail.

The Fynbos vegetation includes Proteas, Restios, Ericas (Heathers), Geophytes, and montane species, but you can also see a number of succulents, and the dazzling bright red Cyrtanthus elatus, George lily.

The infertility of fynbos soils, means that fynbos needs fire to convert accumulated dead vegetation into nutrients. In mature fynbos plants like many Proteas and Conebushes, fires stimulate them to release their seeds, these germinate only when exposed to alternating high and low temperatures and when the soil is bare, i.e. after a fire. Fire is the principal driving force in the ecological dynamics of fynbos ecosystems, and fires are both inevitable and necessary. Fires occur in fynbos at intervals of 10–15 years, short (4–5 years) intervals between fires can eliminate dominant reseeding shrubs. Increased fire frequency favours resprouting species. Decreases in plant diversity have been noted where resprouting species become dominant. After a fire, resprouting occurs within days, and within weeks the landscape is pockmarked with bright patches of flowers, many of which completely depend on fire such as the Fire Lily (Cyrtanthus ventricosus). If fynbos burns too often, those plants that are slow-growing like big Proteas don’t get a chance to mature and develop their seed. The photo below shows that there was a fire here a year or so ago, with the blackened Protea bush, and other small shrubs.

I love heathers, and there were plenty of Erica species flowering this March.

The Perdekop trail was full of blooming geophytes too, that kept grabbing my eye: Tritoniopsis, Nerines, Bubinella, and Bulbine too which is also a succulent.

After being buffeted by the wind and rain, we decided to change course and veered onto the Breakfast rock trail, which was even more exposed, so we doubled back and eventually decided on the Aalwynkop trail.

Restios and grasses covered the slopes in beautiful swathes of green and brown..

The proteas and conebushes weren’t in flower yet, only a promise of what is to come, and some lovely colourful leaves.

We followed the road that headed downwards for a while and then a path branched off to the right, with beautiful views over a valley and stream down below.

A few plants from the Asteraceae family are also found in the fynbos here including Callumia, Athanasia, Osteospermum, Gazania, Gerbera, Senecio, Oedera, Osmitopsis, Felicia, Euryops, Arctotis, Helichrysum, Stoebe, Syncarpha, and Ursinia.

The path made its way to some lovely rocky outcrops and here is when we started to see more succulents.

Niched into little enclaves in the rocks were some succulents: Aloe perfoliata, which the trail is named after, Oscularia deltoides, which is a really cute little grey miniature succulent and what I think were some Sedums, Crassulas and Mesembryanthemums.

Also found in between the rocks were an assortment of flowers including nerines, pelargonium, nemesia, phylica and the beautiful white stars of Zaluzianskya capensis.

Fynbos includes several flowering plants that are not found in any other vegetation type: Brunia, Geissoloma, Grubbia, Penaea, Stilbe, Lanaria, and Roridula. This Brunia noduliflora is an unusual fynbos shrub, known as a Volstruisie (little ostrich) in Afrikaans, alluding to the resemblance of the knobby fruits to ostrich eggs.

Then these plants remain a bit of a mystery, excluding what is perhaps Stoebe microphylla (first pic) and Plecostachys serpyllifolia (last pic).

Then to end off this walk was this incredible plant which resembles Lotus berthelotii, but that’s only found in the Canary islands, and so it’s probably a Fabaceae, but unknown to me at the moment, how beautiful in any case.

Finally the walk came to an end at the car park, and we took our ride back into Franschhoek, to our waiting Wine Tram ride and a day full of fun.

# 7 – November rains have turned the Indigenous garden green

The transition from the dry brown wintery garden to what it looks like now is so radical it always boggles my mind. How can a desert become so jungly? Well I think, or secretly hope, that these few years of good rains might become a common occurence. I love this jungle of green. This video mostly features a few of the indigenous trees growing in the garden, but also some flowers, and two of the ponds.

# 6 – Magagarape and Marama beans

Tylosema esculentum is an edible bean that grows around Botswana, but commonly in deep kalahari soils like those found in Magagarape. It’s a favourite of both humans and goats, so it takes some luck to find any ripe beans. Flowering time is from November onwards depending on the rains, and that goes for the beans too, they usually ripen from February to May. The video below was filmed in November 2022 after early rains.

Other plants in this video are: Elephantorrhiza elephantina; Senna italica; Ruelliopsis setosa; Rhynchosia minima; Xenostegia tridenta; Aptosimum decumbens and Gnidia polycephala

A journey to Jordan

I’ve just returned from the most fantastic trip to Jordan, primarily to visit Petra and to dive in the Red sea, but it turned out that the flora there captivated me too.

The national tree of Jordan is Quercus ithaburensis, an Oak tree, and can be seen in Umm Qais. Umm Qais is a town principally known for its proximity to the ruins of the ancient Gadara. It is in the extreme northwest of the country, near Jordan’s borders with Israel and Syria. You can see the famed Golan heights, Sea of Galilee, Nazareth, Beirut, and Damascus. In the area is also Capparis spinosa (Egyptian caper), Olea europaea (Wild olive), Urginia maritima (Squill), Ornithogalum narbonense (Star of Bethlehem), Androcymbium palaestinum, Chiliadenus iphionoides (yellow flowers) and Tamarix jordanis (Jordanian Tamarisk). See below.

Ajloun Castle, medieval name Qalʻat ar-Rabad, is a 12th-century Muslim castle situated in northwestern Jordan. It is placed on a hilltop belonging to the Mount Ajloun district, also known as Jabal ‘Auf after a Bedouin tribe which had captured the area in the 12th century. Here you can see Pistachio trees (Pistacia palestina), Aleppo pine (Pinus halapensis) and Wild olive trees.

Aqaba is a Jordanian port city on the Red Sea’s Gulf of Aqaba, inhabited since 4000 B.C. It is surrounded by over 292 mountains, many over 1500m. Jabal Um Ad-Dami is the highest point at 1854m, and entering this region is where you begin to see Acacias again, including.Acacia tortillis, Acacia pachycera, Faidherbia albida and Acacia raddiana. Palm trees also fringe the beaches.

From Aqaba to Wadi Rum is a journey into the most incredible realm of mountain and desert scenery. And Petra has to be seen – it is just mind-boggling. This view overlooks the Wadi Musa region on the way to Little Petra, with a Juniper tree in the foreground.

I hiked from Little Petra, to Petra. The desert scenery was quite incredible, with plants like Juniper, Fig, and Urginia/Drimia maritima (Squill), Daphne linearifolia & Osyris alba (red berries), Sarcopterium spinosum, Salvadora persica (Toothbrush tree), Gomphocarpus sinaicus (Milkweed), Nerium oleander (Oleander), Zilla spinosa, Thymelaea hirsuta, Calligonum comosum & Ephedra species (spiky grass-like), Kickxia spartioides, and a lovely pink flower which I think is a Dianthus.

Now we get to Petra, where plants like figs and Capparis ovata thrive in crannies and cracks. Here you can see Salsola inermis (paper like flowers – see below) by roadsides, and Nerium oleander (Oleander) too.